Here's another excerpt, this one from the section entitled Strategies for Discipline:
Q:
Our family's approach in the past was to have immediate consequences for certain behaviors that we (my husband and I) considered particularly undesirable. The behavior is almost always the children hurting each other (they are now 4 and almost 6 years old). Consequences were time outs or losing some kind of privilege or toy.
This has actually gotten a bit ridiculous now because they are nearly always getting on top of each other and someone is getting hurt pretty regularly these days. And now that my son (the youngest) is older and defending himself more, they are on a more equal footing and they actually tend to work a lot of it out themselves.
I have been participating in some Waldorf parent-child classes and have been observing other parents approaches to these kinds of things and I am still feeling a bit on the fence about what I am seeing.
When my children are behaving badly (hitting each other or getting out of control) I am inclined to stop trying to introduce an immediate consequence each time and rather gently say "We don't hurt each other (or some such thing)" and redirect them to something else. BUT- is this going to be effective? Sometimes I watch the other Waldorf moms and think- you have got to be kidding me-your child is going berserk and you are calmly saying "Honey, we don't do that" a million times and I don't see it helping.
I know the goal is long term but I struggle with some of what needs to happen in the short term to reach the long term goal. I think my husband and I both tend towards these immediate consequences but I don't really see it helping much most of the time (sometimes it does help to stop a situation or crazy moment in its tracks). I also worry about being inconsistent in my responses.
Moderator:
So many folks equate "discipline" with punishment....Discipline really means to guide. Discipline is really about loving authority, and you being able to hold the space in front of this really tiny child who is not always ready to be called into individual consciousness for these "bad" actions.....which is NOT to say you do not address it or guide the behavior! The child is neither good nor bad in anthroposophical terms, but LEARNING. It is your job to guide, in a loving way, in a firm way, but not in a punitive way. Saying, "Oh dear, oh dear, look, you pierced your little brother's nose with a screwdriver again, oh dear" is not guiding!
You do not have to be, for lack of a better phrase, a "Valium" parent to guide without yelling, hitting, etc. But you must take that notion of discipline as leadership, and that notion of authority and be an Authentic Leader within your own home and space.
However, in order to do that you have to have a toolbox of tools to replace the yelling and the hitting. Things such as humor, as re-direction into movement and fantasy; that magic phrase "may”; being physically in the same place as your child as opposed to being sitting with the other mothers on the other side of the park whilst the children play; limiting your outings; forming your rhythm and how things are typically done in your home; and the very important notion of restitution are all places to start.
Donna (responding to the above Questioner who also shared that while her children act well in public, they fight all the time at home):
You've hit on the most important piece of this - the fact that your children behave beautifully when they are with others means that you are doing the right things at home. Home is where we relax and let our demons out...and though I am certainly not saying that you shouldn't get involved at the right times with their behavior and have clear boundaries for what is and isn't ok, that it might help to put their relationship into the larger context of how they behave elsewhere.
Children come to their parents and have karma to work out with them - they also have karma with their siblings. And two boys...well, I have two boys. And I know lost of 2-boy families....do yourself a favor, have another one - it might help disperse the conflict a bit!!!!
Boys fight physically. Sisters fight verbally and secretly pinch one another and scream and do little nasty secret things...and boys just haul back and whack one another. I love girls - I have worked with girls as much as I've worked with boys over the past 25+ but...well.... the in-your-face way boys deal with one another really does have its appeal. You know where you are with boys. They're simpler creatures than girls. But you know what - since we are all so "anti violence" these days, it's often the boys that get hammered by their parents while the girls' more subtle and complex nastiness goes unnoticed! Believe me - it's there. Parents just don't always see it though.
But I feel for you - my boys fought, fought, fought - they are now 16 and 18 and you know what - they still fight. I have dealt with it in varying ways - ignored it, redirected it...I've also been known to chuck them out of the house in a blizzard and scream at them that they could either freeze or stop fighting.... I don't really recommend that course of action....
So...have clear boundaries and expectation and this jellyfish business (she had described how she has noticed other parents being unable to set boundaries which she described as being like jellyfish) - well, I love your description! I know just what that looks like - and it's useless. Children just walk all over that. Yeah Discipline Lite - doesn't work with most children because what it usually is hiding is Parenting Lite - parents who are unsure of themselves and exactly what it is they are trying to do.
And yes...it's great to go to Waldorf parenting classes....but....well....there's a lot of nonsense being promulgated in a lot of Waldorf early years programs and schools as well. I hate saying this - but I see it all the time because I'm the one who gets parents coming to her to discuss things and to try to understand what is going on. So take it all in - but you might need to take it with a grain of salt.
Questioner:
Hi Donna,
I appreciate your comments so much. And I am so happy to hear your thoughts on what their behavior in public means (makes me feel so much better about the crazy fights at home).
Just to clarify (not sure if I explained this well) - I have a girl (she is almost 6) and a boy (he just turned 4). I expected my daughter would be more "girly" but she full of fire (in the privacy of our home) and is more likely than her brother to get physical (though he is learning fast!).
I am going back and forth on how much to intervene. I even noticed yesterday that she pulled his hair and while I was seeing if he was ok she ran out of the room. Before I had a chance to speak with her, she came back in and he immediately retaliated. Instead of getting in a war with him, she seemed to swallow that in a "well, I deserved that" kind of way and suggested they go play cars.
I had to kind of laugh to myself over that. While I don't want to encourage this eye for an eye thing, I can see their need to kind of work things out on their own sometimes. I am just trying to find that balance of letting them do that but also making sure they know what Papa and I agree are the rules of our family.
I LOVED the blizzard story!!!!!! Thank you for being so real. It makes me feel so much better about being a good mom to hear these kinds of things.
Donna:
Ooops - why did I assume they were both boys? Why did I read it that way? Interesting. Hmmm...well, then you've got a mix of in-your-face stuff from the boy and more subtle stuff from the girl! (and of course I am simplifying here – some girls are more physical and some boys more subtle! Yet it is also so that there are some generalizations one can make about how boys and girls differ in this respect).
Moderator 2:
I just wanted to respond that the discipline you may see from "Waldorf" parents may have little or nothing to do with Waldorf. Some of the parents I know who have the worst boundaries and are least able to be authoritative parents are "Waldorf" parents. Waldorf parenting is not about being soft and allowing children to run amok; it is about teaching good behavior by example and by setting up healthy rhythms and healthy boundaries that will bring out the best in your children (and you).
The true key to Waldorf discipline is not the tools exactly or the words, but the understanding of where your children are developmentally. Good discipline comes from this understanding. So for your 4 and 6 year olds, they are still in the imitative phase of childhood and very much in their bodies and in the moment. The idea of consequences or time out makes little sense because the child can not connect the consequence to his action and instead feels shame or anger which causes a disconnect with the parent.
By taking away the shovel you are showing that you as their mother will not allow shovels to be used as weapons. This is perfectly right and sound parenting! In the case of when emotions flare (theirs or yours) and a time out may be needed, the time out is not a time to "think about what you did" but rather, it is just some time, time to calm down, time to leave an difficult situation behind and get involved in something more constructive. This time is generally better spent together with Mother than separated from her (unless it is Mother who needs a time out but that is another story). In other words, the "consequence" is still there or maybe even the time out, but the reason behind it is a bit different and the way you go about it might be a bit different too, as your understanding of your children's behavior shifts.
(discussion shifted onto little ones playing together)
As for the hitting and punching, of course that can not be allowed. Parents must swiftly and decisively (but without making a huge fuss) swoop in and redirect children who are lashing out physically and hurting other children. Hands are not for hitting. Bring those hands over here and we'll put them to use digging in the garden. And to the injured child, "oh dear, you got a nasty bump, let's put a cold wash cloth on that and have a little cuddle". But also, don't make a big issue of it. As much as it disturbs us, some children will lash out physically during certain stages in their development. They need to be kept close to their parents and given plenty of positive physical outlets for their energy and frustration.
Generally speaking, it is quite difficult and sometimes inadvisable to bring a group of 3 and 4 year olds together to play. Children are much more capable of group play at 5 and 6. If 3 and 4 year olds are brought together in a playgroup, it is important for the adults present to really talk about and understand how to hold the space and to work together at this. Often there are younger toddlers around as well, the siblings of the older ones. It is unrealistic to expect that these very young children will simply play nicely together. The parents MUST learn how to hold the space for the children.
When I had playgroups at my house we had one little girl (she was the youngest in the group) who would suddenly lash out and scratch the other children and one little boy in particular got a few nasty scratches. The mother had several children and was pregnant, she had a very difficult circumstance at home and she really needed our group. We agreed we didn't want to ask her to stop coming. So we all agreed to make sure that one of us was always nearby this little girl keeping her on our radar at all times since her mother was incapable of doing so consistently. The trick is to not hover over the child but to make them feel held by your warm, firm presence. I can't say that there was never another scratch but for the most part we kept the group safe for all the children. It was very difficult to talk about this issue but if I hadn't brought it up, the parents of the injured children would have (rightly) quit coming and the group would have fallen apart. I was fortunate to be able to discuss this with everyone and not have any hurt feelings or resentment result.
Donna:
I think the most important piece here is our moderator’s comment about such tiny children playing together - they are too young. Under about 4 1/2, children simply do not have the ability to empathize with the Other and therefore to be truly sociable. Of course, they can play and for much of the time they can be fine. But as soon as there is stress, things deteriorate and it is simply not fair for adults to put them into this situation (i.e. expecting them to be able to play and/or be sociable).
This is one reason why in the old days, no child under 4 1/2 was allowed into a Waldorf kindergarten.
So adults need to be mindful - and know when a child is stressed. Our moderator gives a really good example of this - and I know from my own experience of running a nursery and mom/toddler groups, that when a child scratches or bites, that is a serious red flag that s/he is stressed out. And as soon as that comes into the group, you have problems as 3 and 4 year olds are simply not old enough to be able to cope. And that's all there is to it. Adults then have to stage manage everything every step of the way. Sounds tedious to me. The children would be better off at home as far as I'm concerned with an occasional play date with just 1 or 2 other children until they are about 5+ or even older for some very sensitive little souls.
Moderator 2:
You don't rush in and soothe neither do you leave them to sort it out as they are too young. You hold the space, you keep engaged nearby with meaningful work with an ear and an eye to what is happening with your children. Before things escalate, you are there, with a snack, a hug, a redirection, a song. You need a helper to dust the window sills, to plant some bulbs, to chop the carrots. You involve the children with what you are doing at least from time to time. You hold the mood and change the mood as needed. Your strong warm presence and home rhythms carry the children along and keep the play environment peaceful and safe.
Does this always work to prevent all sibling disputes? No. And anyway, few if any mothers can achieve this all the time. Sometimes we tune out, or lose center, but when we do, then well, we shouldn't be surprised that the children know it and that they behave accordingly. This is the reminder to us to find our center again. When I had three very little ones at home and my husband at the same time worked a very demanding job where he was traveling all the time, I remember that it wasn't how the children behaved that defined a good day or a bad day; it was how I behaved that mattered. If I was centered, present, at peace we had a good day.
Self-discipline is the key to motherhood; this is an ongoing lesson at least for me.
Donna:
Ditto, ditto, ditto and more ditto to what has just been said. It's very entertaining to little ones when parents rush in and sooth or get upset – we must not feed the fires!
It is important for children to have the opportunity to sort things out between themselves too. It's the parents’ job to create the space and hold the boundaries - and to intervene only when necessary. The rest is up to them. And don't worry about the eye for an eye thing - it is right and proper in this stage of their development. It is not where we as adults are and they will, over time see this as they observe how we interact with other people (and never through moralizing!). Morality and ideas of justice and higher ends take a long time to develop in the human being. That's where the Waldorf curriculum can help so much.
